James Pittman: Welcome to Immigration Uncovered, the docketwise video podcast where we dive deep into the dynamic world of immigration law with the latest developments, practice management strategies, and the transformative impact of legal technology. I'm James Pittman. And today, my guest is Christopher Bagnotto. Christopher is a founding partner of GenpDiagnostics, attorneys at law located in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. We're gonna talk today about the secrets of building a successful law practice in the Latino community.

James Pittman: So, Chris, welcome. Thanks for joining me.

Christopher Bagnato: Yeah. Absolutely. Thanks for having me. Looking forward to this.

James Pittman: Absolutely. You you have an interesting story that kind of leads to why your whole world practice is focused in the in the populate. Let's just delve a little bit into your background. You're actually born in Colombia, and then you grew up here in United States. Talk about it.

Christopher Bagnato: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I was, I was born in Medellin, Colombia. I was an orphan there. I was at an orphanage there for around a year, that was adopted by, an American family with an Italian last name since that's why my last name is Bagnato. I had a Spanish I had a different name in Colombia. Juan David Moreno was my name there. Other than that, there's really no other information on me. I did try to locate relatives, and so I found distant cousins and everything through, like, you know, Family Tree DNA or DNA type of things, like, that you can do, like 23 andMe. But, you know, nothing came about it. I did visit the orphanage 2 times. First time was in 2010 with a friend of mine, one of my best friends who, with the high school with me. And then I just recently went 2 years ago with my son and wife. So that was a really, you know, a really memorable experience for everyone. And it's right in Medellin. And, you know, so that was the beginning of, you know, me starting to, like, really know, you You know, what was happening with my life when I came over and I lived in the United States. And I understood Spanish, I guess, as a baby, and then I came here and I I forgot it, and then I had to relearn it starting with just school, middle school, and then high school. And then high school is when I got really good at Spanish. I studied abroad in Spain, And, my Spanish teacher was amazing. And, she said, you know, I decided to take, like, 2 or 3 Spanish courses in high school, just to get better at it in AP Spanish, and then I decided to major in Spanish, Spanish education at, Westchester University. Then I decided I didn't wanna be a a teacher so much, although I did the full circle eventually, but I didn't wanna teach, like, high school or middle school kids. I wanted to do something else, something within the Latino community, so I always knew I wanted to give back and really help out using my Spanish to help out the Latino community. And I thought, what could be the best way to do that? I should go to law school. And so I applied to law school, and I went to a law school in Indianapolis for 2 years. Then I came back For my final year of law school because I always wanted to come back to Philadelphia, for Villanova Law, and I was there for a year. And then I did another year at Temple law for trial advocacy because I wanted to be in court. I wanted to be a litigator and help people. And, and then so I got that degree in LLM and trial advocacy. And then I decided years later, just I'm in my 2nd or 3rd year where now I'm an adjunct law professor at Villanova, and I teach upper level, students who are bilingual The Spanish for lawyers course. So they're teaching them basically how to represent Spanish speaking clients and in the different areas of law, Which we do. We do a lot of different areas of law.

James Pittman: So that's pretty amaze really for you. You've managed to express, like, the organic connect in in in your choice of Ashton. And you've you've had that sort of dream of becoming a lawyer and working in the way that you're working, and you can manage what. So let's focus a little bit on the Latino community and your client base here. What percentage of your practice nowadays do you think the Spanish speaking population?

Christopher Bagnato: Wow. We're definitely 75, probably 75%. I definitely have a lot more Spanish speaking clients than non Spanish speaking clients. We've expanded. We, we we speak, Portuguese as well. So I speak some Portuguese because there's a decent sized Brazilian community. So now we're starting to, You know, get more engulfed into the Brazilian community to bring them out and have us help represent them as well. But then the obviously, the basis of the South American country is Mexico, as well as the majority of our clientele.

James Pittman: And to what extent do you find that immigration cases and the nonimmigration cases creation cases that you do, like family law or criminal defense complement each other. In other words, do you get a lot of non immigration referrals from the immigration clients and vice versa?

Christopher Bagnato: Yes. Yes. We do. Absolutely. You know, immigration and family law go together, And there's certain areas of aspects of it. You know, there's you know, in the immigration and criminal absolutely go together as well because a lot of parts, if you're in removal defense, Then you you know, a lot of it is similar. You're doing a bond motion to try to get the person out, so it really does match. And then if the person has a criminal conviction, that could affect how Their immigration case proceeds, so, you know, they might have to go to criminal court and reopen the case. Same with family law. Family law, Well, that's immigration as well. If you think of it, you're trying to file for an aunt or uncle or a parent not aunt or uncle, but a parent or a wife or a spouse, and you want them to come over. So that's family, and, also, there's special immigrant juvenile status, where the first step is that you for a minor child who crosses the border, You need to get a child custody order from someone. So, you know, you go in family court to get the custody order, then you file with USCIS. So there's definitely a merger be between the areas of law. And what I've realized that these people need holistic attorneys, not just for immigration only or criminal or family. You know, things come up and they wanna know that they can count on someone so they'll reach out to me for anything, whether it's personal injury, you know, a regular civil contract. You know, they're you know, They are, you know, they're having problems trying to collect on a debt, you know, thing things of that nature. Anything comes up, and we try to help out as much as we can.

James Pittman: Well, you're obviously getting a lot of word-of-mouth referrals because by this point, your reputation, is is pretty low. But in terms of advertising, if someone's to build a Spanish dominant base. What do you think some of the effective marketing strategies for reaching a Latino population. And feel free to tell her, you know, what your your confidence to the the Philadelphia area or whatever you think generalize.

Christopher Bagnato: Yeah. If you're just starting out, obviously, word-of-mouth is huge, but you also wanna get involved in the communities, visiting churches, finding Spanish speaking churches, speaking to the churches, Fasten out your information because if you're at a church, you're gonna have hopefully at least 30 to 50 people at that church, Spanish speaking churches, and they that's where I got the when I first started, The bulk of my clients came from a Spanish speaking church in Northeast Philadelphia. So then I would expand through there, through other churches, And then, of course, you can start spending money where you would advertise in the Hispanic yellow pages or, Hispanic lawyers network.com. There's another website. And then, you know, there's other, you know, avogados.com. So you can try to you could spend money doing that, plus you can hire someone to do SEO for you or pay for click, And, you know, you start jumping down that road, and and that works as well. So if you do, like, a pay for click, I'm saying and someone goes online and they Google, you know, in Spanish, like, you know, attorney needed who speaks Spanish, and they do that a lot. I need a divorce attorney who speaks Spanish. My name will hopefully pop up. So that's how you really get out for online advertising as well.

James Pittman: Hispanic Yellow Pages sounds very last century. I mean, Think I mean, is that literally a print public

Christopher Bagnato: Yeah. They have a print publication. They do, and they send it out. And all the a lot of the households get it, but they also have an online website.

James Pittman: Do you think that most of your business is being found online nowadays? I mean, apart from the word-of-mouth referrals that you mentioned.

Christopher Bagnato: Yeah. It's absolutely online. Absolutely. They're they're I ask them as soon as they come in here, how'd you find me? And they're they almost always say, I went online. I went on Google, and I typed in I needed an as a divorce attorney in Spanish, and your name came up. So that that's how they find me because they, you know, they try to look for Spanish speaking attorneys.

James Pittman: So when you're when you're representing, the the Spanish speaking clients, I mean, what steps do you take to ensure that, you know, the that's understanding their rights are understanding the representation. I mean, do you put your retainer agreement in Spanish or what were?

Christopher Bagnato: Yes. We have, retainer agreements in Spanish and English we can provide to them. We also all my staff, whether they speak Spanish, they know how to use Spanish translations, Google translate or something. So the majority of time, even my legal secretary She still have the capability to input information, and I and she'll send letters in Spanish and English. I tell her to do it both because sometimes they they, you know, they can read what we're We're trying to say plus the the translation and try to really make sure because a lot of them do have different levels of English.

Christopher Bagnato: So but I I wanna make sure they're all comfortable. So I I do put as much in Spanish as I as I can. And if they always ask for or request more, I will as well.

James Pittman: Have you found that, the clients from the Latin American countries, have any misconceptions about sort of the legal system, and how do you you'll go about educating?

Christopher Bagnato: Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, they don't know what they don't know. That's the biggest thing. They're they come from a different country. It's completely different than their countries. So, you know, you kinda have to educate them because they don't know what's gonna happen to them, whether it's an immigration, and they're very fearful with immigration, obviously, or if it's criminal or even family because they're They're afraid that in family court that someone's gonna call immigration on them or something if they don't have a status. You know? So they have to they have to be comforted A lot more. And then what I do is I provide my cell phone to them a lot of times saying, just text me, call me. With any issues, I'll let you know or you let me know, and I will explain things to you. You And then that's what comforts them.

James Pittman: So you've been teaching Irish for law at Villanova. Are you still doing that, by the way?

Christopher Bagnato: Yes. Yes. I am. Yes. I do it mainly in the fall semester.

James Pittman: Gotcha. Are there students do you find a lot of the law student primarily interested in immigration, or is it just across the board?

Christopher Bagnato: I definitely I do think I the majority of the kids that I've had in my classes, the one the largest class I had was, like, 15 students, 15 to 20 students, and there the majority was Interested in immigration. But the rest of them are all mix. Like, you know, maybe you'll have 5 people for immigration. So maybe, what is that, 20, 25% Specifically for immigration and everyone else is like, you know, I wanna be in civil, personal injury, criminal, or or what have you. And they're They're all I have some, obviously, bilingualism to them. They know enough Spanish to take the course because I teach it all in Spanish, and they read case books and cases in Spanish because I get them from Puerto Rico, A couple of real cases in Spanish. And, you know, and, obviously, I treat treat it like real life on we do role playing as the this is your client. This is supliente. You know, how are you gonna represent them, you know, things like that so they can understand how to represent Spanish speaking clients and what what issues can come up. They come from all different walks of life, and some of my students have speak 3 or 4 different languages. So I I was impressed by the students that I even had.

James Pittman: Let's dig a little bit into the cultural empathy. So, and cultural competence. Do you see any differences in how the, you know, the non Latino population deals with US, their lawyer versus, you know, behavior, expectation that you would find with in the United States, they may bring different tends to do certain think, work, or vendor or kind of

Christopher Bagnato: One thing I really do like culturally is that when my Latin American clients, they'll call me doctor. So that's the one thing that, you know, we don't We don't have here in the United States. Even though we have a doctorate of jurisprudence, they don't call the attorneys here doctors. But in South America, especially, they call you doctor doctor. So they give a little bit more respect to you sometimes, I feel.

Christopher Bagnato: You know, the clients, they still absolutely just like any clients, they can contact you a lot, Be a, you know, be a little needy if they if they are they have concerns. But, you know, I overall, I find them to be a lot more respectful that a lot of my non Latino clients.

James Pittman: Well, Chris, if you go around, near, calling yourself doctor, I think people are gonna start asking what medications you're It's not. Exactly.

Christopher Bagnato: They think I'm a medical. That means all that we think of when we see doctors in the United States, but other countries, it's it's attorneys and and

James Pittman: How about the issue of the notarios? I'm there are notarios in Latin America who actually are professionals, who through certain legal acts, like they've registered land deeds and and things of that nature. But here, people I I mean, the concept of notary in the United States, really just basically stamping doc putting a seal on documents for official usage. So there's confusion, I think, with that term. And do you find, a tendency how bad is the tendency to rely on nonattorneys for immigration legal advice. Do you find the the notarial problem, which is really bedeviled immigration lawyers? Does that come up much?

Christopher Bagnato: Yes. Yes. Absolutely. It's come up a lot. I've had a lot of clients or prospective client meetings where they things got messed up because they went to a notario before and not an attorney.

Christopher Bagnato: And in their country, yeah, like you said, their notarios there are almost like pseudo attorneys, whereas here, notaries are literally just going and they're putting a stamp. Then, you know, my legal secretary is a notary as well. You know? But they see it as a higher level close to an attorney, and then they see the discount as well. And they're like, well, why not use them? And then they learn the hard way, unfortunately, when something gets denied or messed up, and then they come to me. And then I say, You shoulda never went to this person. This is a notary, and this is the scam of what these notaries are doing. And I think that they're, Unfortunately, the majority of the time, other immigrants coming over here scamming their own people, you know, because they say, well, I can be a notary, and I they see how easy it is to get out there and I'll sell it Cheaper than legal fees costs, but they don't they don't know it right, and then things get messed up a lot more. So it is still a major problem In in immigration, especially, more than any other area of law.

James Pittman: But your practice is, in fact, a general practice law firm, and you you're doing several areas, family law, immigration, and you did some civil litigation too. What are the challenges of managing a practice like that? I mean, do you do you have apartments, or I mean, which areas are you personally involved in, and what are some of the challenges with, you know, practicing in multiple areas? It's ongoing learning. That could be

Christopher Bagnato: the biggest issue because we'll take on a lot of different cases and and, you know, so we'll it's ongoing learning of what we can do, especially if it's I guess What I do, personally, I do a lot of family law in court. Immigration, as you know, is a lot of it is paperwork. A lot of filling out the forms, federal forms, unless you do removal hearings. Right. So I have an immigration a full time immigration paralegal, and I also have a full time associate who just runs my immigration department as well.

Christopher Bagnato: So she runs the immigration department. She goes to hearings, and I, as the supervisor, I cover when she's double booked, and I review documentation to make sure and she reviews also That make sure that everything's good when we send it to USCIS. I'm usually the first person that sees the prospective client And welcomes them to the law firm, and then the the work gets divvied out to the staff, delegated to the staff to actually, you know, collect documents, things like that. And they're here from my paralegal. They'll, you know, say these are the documents we need. This is where we're at. And then, you know, Kimberly, you know, my associate, she will actually, You know, review everything as well. And if it has to go to court, she'll go or I will go. And then that's how we divvy it up. And then family law, I mean, I I do it with my partner, And, we do in family law, it's a lot of court hearings, the most court hearings. So I do attend a lot of those hearings, same with criminal And, civil litigation as well. Civil's a little bit less. Court hearings, more paperwork and pleadings again, but with a lot of negotiating. So it's a mix.

James Pittman: And how how much does the the crimigration issues come up? I mean, I know you've you do you do removal hearings. Or

Christopher Bagnato: Yes. Yes. We are. We're still doing removal hearings. I haven't had one of those cases in a couple years where we've needed to file a post conviction relief act petition under Batson Beebe Kentucky to try to reopen a criminal case. But, yeah, it does come up. It does come up if if if what if the if they're trying to remove someone who's got a criminal conviction and it's recent enough that they think that they can try to reopen it, And we've done it a few times. Other than that, the majority of them that we get, it it was so long ago, the conviction, so that we're kinda just litigating In immigration court to see if it fits, you know, the felony statute of an aggravated felony or something.

James Pittman: Right. I mean, even if you're not trying to reopen a conviction, nevertheless, you still to understand immigration consequence, revising your criminal client. It's about a plea, yeah, that they might take or whether to go to trial or how do, how do the charges or, you know, any fiction on any charge, depending on what it is, it's gonna have different immigration and consequences. And, you know, if you're practicing both of those areas, obviously, as, you know, what you do now, engaging for Michael, to all of those. Yeah. No.

Christopher Bagnato: We have to do with all our criminal clients. And since in the jargon my criminal clients are immigrants, I have to strictly advise them as well and let them know specifically, hey. With this conviction, you're at risk of being put in removal proceedings. So you have to take that in consideration whether you're gonna continue fighting this case or accept a plea. So, yes, it is something that comes up.

James Pittman: Let's talk about the technology stack in the firm. So, you know, how automated are you at this point, and and what office technologies, what platforms are you for your practice? We're pretty automated in terms that we we have QuickBooks. You know, we organize all

Christopher Bagnato: of the files. We have used the form filling software. One of them was docket docketwise we use. That's the most automated we do with the staff. My par legal she fills out the forms and everything, and we'll use the program. Other than that, I think those are those are the main things that we use in terms of technology, the QuickBooks. Now we had a a g drive with all the immigration files. Everything is scanned in the computers, all of the documents. Plus, we still are kinda old school that we still have a hard file because I just like to be able to see the hard file and see what's in there.

James Pittman: Do you use a separate case management platform like MyCATE or a different general practice, management's law. Where?

Christopher Bagnato: No. As of right now, no.

James Pittman: You know, Chris, you were recognized several years ago as a nationally ranked law of attorney under 40, and I think was A lot of that was due to your work and family law. But to what do you attribute your success in that area? I mean, what goes into making a, really good family law apparently, especially for the Spanish speaking client base.

Christopher Bagnato: I think it's just not giving up in terms when you're advocating for your clients. And then, You know, you can win all cases all the time as well, but as long as you advocate strongly and you you are prepared and you do research and you do the best that you can to represent your clients, The majority of the time, they're pleased that you put the best effort forth in the case. Then they'd they, you know, they'd advise other people, And the biggest compliment is to refer another client to us. So I think that through word-of-mouth and then just with the reputation as you grow That I I've been known to, represent a majority of the Spanish speaking clients. Philadelphia courts know me very well. All of the translators know me as well because they know if I'm coming in there, majority of the time, I'm gonna need a translator for my Spanish speaking clients, and all the judges know me. And the judges actually I've had judges actually appoint me clients they'd asked me to take a case pro bono because it was just complicated and they didn't know English, and they they wanted to find an attorney to help him. So I haven't said no to a judge yet, so I don't I wanna stay in their good graces. So I said, sure. I will I will take on these cases if you'd like me to.

James Pittman: Do you see yourself maybe, trying to get on the judiciary at some point?

Christopher Bagnato: Yes. I think that's a very strong possibility. I do. Maybe in, like, you know, 15 years or so, see how this goes. I wanna I, you know, I don't wanna leave what I'm doing on this aspect because right here is where I'm really helping people personally. But I do see the other end of it. If I'm a judge, then I can help them By making decisions for them, I would be I live in Delaware County, so I'd most likely be a Delaware County judge unless I move to Philadelphia. And but I I that's another thing I'd have to balance because I like Philadelphia courts a lot more. But I ran for magistrate judge in 2017, which is the equivalent of a small claims judge In Delaware County just to get an experience and get in with my political party and, you know, network. And that was a that was a great experience. So and maybe 15 years or so, if I If I feel the need to, I might run again.

James Pittman: That's great. And, Chris, what would be your suggestions to, let's say, non Latino peers for improving their their cultural competence when when they're dealing with the Spanish speaking client population. Like, suppose you had someone who went through your Spanish for loyal work and they studied on us, and they wanna be able to deal to work with this this population and make this a a big part of their practice. What would you suggest for them in terms of achieving cultural competence and being effective with your clients? Well, absolutely. Number 1, learn the language as best you can, and use the language as much as you can and meet as many Spanish speaking people as

Christopher Bagnato: you can. And if you wanna get into law and you join a general practice firm or you start doing it yourself, you're gonna start learning the cultural aspects as you're starting to represent these people. My associate's been with me since 2016 or 2017, and, she is a Caucasian, went to Villanova Law, was a Spanish major. She's has no Latino background at whatsoever. She's married to another American non Latino, and she's been able to Be a top immigration attorney. You know? And she did family before, but she told me she says, I mainly wanna do immigration. So I said, alright. Don't worry. I'll do more family. So you handle just that department because we're starting to get larger and more and more cases. So and I brought her, and then I got her a a paralegal full time to help out. So that that's what you should do. You should really just dive right in there and, be exposed to the culture as much as you can. Yeah. I'm blessed that I I did. I I I married a Latina also, so I'm exposed to Ecuadorian culture. So, you know, and my My in laws speak only mainly Spanish, so I've been blessed in that nature that I I kinda jumped in. I got best of both worlds. Right? So, you know, that's basically what you wanna do when you wanna sympathize with the culture and everything as much as you can.

James Pittman: And you actually went back became a dual citizen of Columbia because you you obviously have the right to do that since you were born there. But there was a process that kinda came through to get it right?

Christopher Bagnato: Yes. Yes. Absolutely. I had, I went to the Columbian consulate in Newark, New Jersey, and I brought all my adoption papers and my birth certificates that they found in that I had in from Columbia. And then they found me, and then they said, alright. Well, we found you, and then I had to get what's known as a Sedwa, which is the form of the their governmental ID they use. And, I showed them my old passport, And, you know, I get to renew my passport and everything. I still have some work to do over there, though. When I get there again, if I actually have time, is because I still I have a separate name Over there that I have here in the United States because when they did my paperwork when I was a baby, whoever did it, they kinda did, like, a mix. So in Colombia, my name is David Bagnato. They did it like that. So they took the my my instead of they they dropped the wall on. They kept the last name as Bagnato, and then they added my, I guess my mother's made a name just like you do in Latino culture. So I have that name. It's a little different. But David's the name of my son, so I I you know, that's that's how I brought my son into it and named him that. But I did all the paperwork. And right now, actually, I'm I'm giving homage or honor to my adopted family Because my adopted family is majority Italian, and I real and my father said, like, hey. This is your great great grandfather's from Italy, And I got his birth certificate in Italian. So then what I did was I found another, an immigration attorney who specializes with Italian citizenship. So now we're looking in to get Italian citizenship also. So I'm gonna have, like, a trifecta hopefully soon eventually.

James Pittman: The EU, that's gonna be very handy thing to have, Chris.

Christopher Bagnato: That's what I'm doing. I'm like, well, wait. Because it's not just in Italy. I can travel all over the EU, the European Union.

James Pittman: And you've been a legal analyst on Mundau, which is I think that's a regional Spanish speaking channel where their local affiliate is NBC 10. But what's it like working with the Spanish language media. Did those, opportunities, have they come your way recently? And do you mostly discuss immigration, or do they call your further legal authority as well.

Christopher Bagnato: No. No. They've been great. They they seeked me out. It was great. They found me. They called me up. They're looking for Spanish speaking attorney to comment on Things that were happening. I remember I did one when Bill Cosby was criminally charged many a few years ago. I did multiple, videos for that. I did the immigration one. I did another one. Mostly, it was for criminal cases, I think. And I did another one on, I guess the child, the children's sex thing in the news. So, you know, they were it it was a good experience, and I got to know the, the reporters. And, you know, then they know that I'm always available if they wanna call me up.

James Pittman: And you've been a board member at the Hispanic Bar Association. So Tell us about the activities of Black. Who do you think are the the importance of minority association like that in the

Christopher Bagnato: No. I absolutely do think it's very important. It's all great. It's incredible networking. I'm still a board member. I still go to meetings, monthly meetings. That's how I actually found the job to be a adjunct law professor at Villanova. Someone posted who's another Spanish speaking attorney, Spanish, Latina attorney, And she went to Villanova, and she sent a mass email out to everyone saying, hey. You know, the Villanova's looking for an adjunct law professor To teach a course called Spanish for Lawyers if anyone's interested in building the course. So I said, oh, yeah. Let me see get some information. So, you know, that was networking. Plus, I've gotten law clerks From recommendations by people. There's job postings, that are posted all the time. So if you're if you're, if you're gonna be an attorney And you're Hispanic or Spanish speaking even, I think that you should join the Hispanic Bar Association. Plus, they have meet and greets, and you can hang out with your peers And, really get to know everyone and refer each other cases as well because I I am known as representing a lot of Spanish speaking clients in the, you know, family criminal immigration realm, but there's other attorneys that do, like, employment discrimination cases or civil rights cases or workers' comp cases. So, you know, if they need it, I can communicate with those attorneys and, refer them the case if needed. So it's it's good networking.

James Pittman: And, Chris, well, how do you update on migration, policy, and just, I mean, immigration those areas where it's very dependent on on policy in in effect that will only take time and different president policies, different executive work. How do you want to stay up to date? Yeah.

Christopher Bagnato: So you gotta always, you always wanna keep reading on the news, keeping up to date on the news, get on get on immigration listservs. Alright. There's a lot of listservs out there, whether it's through the Philadelphia Bar Association or any other bar association. You can join listservs. I'm on multiple listservs.

Christopher Bagnato: Like, I'm on a listserv for 3rd Circuit Court of appeals, which is the immigration court of appeals cases. I'm in regular immigration, listservs, the Philadelphia Association of immigration attorneys that has a listserv. So there's multiple immigration listservs that you can join to educate yourself because they that'll just put you in touch with all fellow immigration attorneys. And what we do there is talk about updates in laws, you know, things how things are going with ICE or the judges, And that's the best way to stay educated and up to date on stuff.

James Pittman: And what's your feeling? I mean, have you gotten any questions that's, about how the clients are feeling this year with the the presidential election going on, and we're facing, you know, the chance that Donald Trump is not exactly you know, let's say, who's, rather anti immigrant. You know, how what's your sense of how people are feeling? Do you think people are worried, or do you see people making any changes in their behavior, or people

Christopher Bagnato: maybe thinking of leaving, I mean, what or or you haven't noted? I don't think that they're worried, I mean, yet. They're aware of what's going on, and they're hoping that That, mister Trump doesn't go back into office again because they do real remember when he was in office how strict he was for immigration. They obviously would've liked something more done by Joe Biden, and the Democrats, but I I you know? So they're just gonna keep a watchful eye on this election and and see what happens and hope that If if they're hoping that it's another Democrat or mister Biden wins and if he wins, that he can make the laws a little bit better for them.

James Pittman: And how about yourself? I mean, do you feel, as a a person at the returning who involved in immigration law and who's involved was born in Old Mark. I mean, when you hear some of the rhetoric coming from, you know, the far right side of this platform. I mean, how

Christopher Bagnato: does it make you feel? It can anger me. I absolutely I get concerned. Sometimes I get angry. I get annoyed about what they say, but I also try to sympathize, and I always try to listen to what their side is as well. And my father always tells Need to watch Fox News just to have an idea of what what is going on with the other side and what's their concerns so you can find a way to, you know, alleviate the concerns of someone who Mainly is a conservative and, you know, have conversations on how we can fix it. Right? Because both people wanna blame each side. And then if you put on Fox News, the number one issue for them is immigration. And they're saying how, you know, the now with Biden in office that all these illegal immigrants are coming over and things like that. And then they exacerbated saying that all these immigrants are, you know, committing crimes and just going on all this rhetoric And everything. But, you know, the best way it is just be educated and just watch both sides and, you know, try to, you know, be compassionate on both ends, but also, You know, have my own faith and belief into what I what I want or what I think should occur.

James Pittman: And your dealings with the courts and the agencies and the, the prosecutors, and so forth. Are there any initiatives or any suggestions or any necessary changes that you see in the legal system that could better serve diverse communities, specifically the Latino population, but also other diverse Is there anything you where you say, you know, they really should into this, it would just work better.

Christopher Bagnato: Can I just say for the state of Pennsylvania, the commonwealth, specifically? Our state Does not allow undocumented immigrants to have a driver's license, and it is causing so much pain for these people because They need to be able to drive to go to work, and then they're stuck with the unfortunate thing of either driving and risking driving without a license tickets, And then it gets it it turns into a boiler effect because if you keep getting driver and without a license after the 4th or so ticket, you're gonna get suspended. And then even if you don't even have a license, you're suspended. But then you're still driving because you have to. You have to work and provide for a family. And if you get caught and you then you're getting driving with a on a suspended license. And then after 5 or 6 of them, you can get jail time. You get 30 days of jail time. So and then it just doesn't make sense terms that if you look at the other states that are right next to us, New Jersey does allow driver's license to undocumented immigrants, and they are actually they're being so successful with it. It's not like these immigrants are getting behind the wheel and just crashing cars. You know? If you if you check, they're not getting pulled over anymore Or more probably less than the majority of other non, you know, nonimmigrants. So that's the biggest gripe that I have right now with the state, and I've been trying to contact local Representatives. And before I, you know, give a donation to them or or support them, I tell them I really want you to look into this and create a bill. So that's that's the biggest thing right there. I'm thinking for locally in Pennsylvania, they really need to pass to allow driver's license Because these people are forced to either drive or move to New Jersey or let's just face it. They might pretend that they moved to New Jersey. You know? So and and it just causes even more problems. So that's one thing that that I think that they should really look into.

James Pittman: So at the in in the context, though, like some of your other practice areas like family law or criminal. Do you do you see much awareness around the immigration issues by on the part of, let's say, opposing counsel, on the part of prosecutors. I mean, do you do you see any, awareness around the immigration issues that some of your clients might be facing. Let's say, for example, you know, I've instances where, let's say, in a in a contested divorce or something, one party, let's say your client, might be undocumented and the other the other party might try to make that an issue, in the child's custody or something like that saying, you know, can did that person, you know, have of, you know, the majority custody or whatever given that they're undocumented and the problems that that could cause. I mean, have you seen anything like that?

Christopher Bagnato: Yeah. I I mean, that's absolutely something that comes about all the time in terms that when you're advocating in child custody cases, for instance, one party might try to bring up the fact that there the other side is an illegal immigrant and speculate that they might get deported any time. They just use it as arguments. Most courts have been pretty good about Ignoring those arguments, the more rural the location is, the less chance that the court is going to be blinded to those type of arguments. Right? I've also noticed recently with the new changes of district attorneys that, the more liberal district attorneys in liberal cities that they've actually Been more compassionate to immigration issues by hiring prior immigration attorneys to advise, the district attorney's office so they know that when, you know, there's a criminal defendant that they wanna take into consideration and whether they want to or not, take into consideration immigration consequences. So Philadelphia has done wonderful in terms that now, especially since I represent a lot of immigrants, I know the liaison, the district attorney liaison, quite well in fill in Philadelphia. And I contact they every single time when I have a case. I contact the person, and the person actually reaches out to me. And, we work through the process, and they they do very well at, cons you know, trying to be fair. So I always know that I can contact that person when that when that issue comes up With immigrants. So and I noticed other district attorneys in liberal locations are becoming more knowledgeable about the immigration consequences Because they don't want the cases to get come back either. You know? Because if if you file post conviction relief act petition, you reopen everything. So they wanna make sure they get it right the first time As best they can.

James Pittman: How about how about the judiciary, like, the the judges, in criminal court? I mean, have you seen them mention anything about immigration consequences, or does that factor in their thinking at all, or or they don't touch that issue themselves? They leave it to the parties, the prosecuting, and the defense?

Christopher Bagnato: Well, it definitely depends on the judge. If the judge is a a knowledgeable judge and has a prior history of immigration law Whereas it or just knowledgeable, cultural, and and understands, you know, these issues with immigrants or sympathetic about it, Then, yes, that I've I've seen judges all the time. I've seen them that they've pointed it out. They said that, you know, do you understand the immigration consequences? They try to make sure it. You know, you know, and then other judges, the they are more old school, and they just ignore it. They just say, like, whatever you guys wanna bring to the table, Put it on the record. That's not a concern for me at this time. So every judge is different. So every courtroom, every city. So it's just a matter of where you're going to go, but I've seen it both sides.

James Pittman: Understood. And, Chris, you're actually, shifting topic a little bit. You're actually the CFO of the firm that you're a partner at, Johnson and Bagnato. And, You know, what are some of your tips in terms of, running a practice successfully from a business angle, how to ensure that the firm is profitable and is is doing well. I mean and, Walter, did you have, you know, management or finance experience, or or did you or how did you get up to speed on that side of the business?

Christopher Bagnato: Yeah. I mean, this this firm has told me everything, basically. I didn't I I was not a management major. I didn't I Didn't even take business courses in college. I was a Spanish education major. I took maybe, like, sociology type of reading courses and things of that nature. Don't have an MBA or anything, but I I learned pro you know, because I had to. I took this position. My partner doesn't like looking at numbers, so I said, I'm going to jump in and make sure. And first thing I did was hire competent accountants. Okay? So we have an accountant firm, not just one person, but a full accountant firm, even though they're actually based out of Florida. They're incredible. We do Zoom meetings, and they and they actually get into all of our accounts, whether it's the credit card accounts or the logins for the banks, and they watch everything. Right? And then I have a bookkeeper, and she's been amazing. And she does the front end and collects the payments and helps. And I, as the CFO, I'm the overseer, And I deal with the advertising companies. So, throughout the which the the practice of law is a lot It's a lot easier in a way than running the business, honestly, and I say that a lot. Running this business can be the most stressful part about my job because I have to make enough money to pay my staff. You know, so in cash flow and all that and advertising and, you know, things of that nature. So it's definitely been a learning experience, but I I wouldn't give it up, you know, For the world, basically.

James Pittman: And how many attorneys are you up to now with the firm?

Christopher Bagnato: We are up to 1, 2, 3 full time ones, including myself, and, then we have multiple other attorneys that we work with, whether it's per diem. We're looking to bring on another attorney per diem or full time to help cover hearings because we're getting so busy. So, or or, of course, we have the referral attorneys as well that we work with, you know, one who does our plaintiff personal injury because I myself, I'll practice mainly civil defense. So and I represent a lot of his Spanish speaking clients in civil defense as well because a lot of times they don't have insurance. If you don't have insurance to cover you and represent you, you gotta find your own lawyer. So they hire me, and then I speak Spanish, and I can communicate with them.

James Pittman: So And, Chris, looking ahead, what roles do you have for the firm? I mean, what what what do you want to be your legacy in the legal profession?

Christopher Bagnato: I absolutely would like that, you know, To know that what I have been doing for these past years because I've been practicing for around 15 years now. I can't believe it. But, you know, it it it's been successful not only in The growth of my firm and success of my firm, but through the future younger attorneys that might work for this firm and the staff that come and work for this firm and the clients That they know, hey. There was this law firm that really helped me years ago for a civil case, and they spoke my language, and they were compassionate About my cultural aspects, and they helped me with my family law case, divorce, or immigration, or whatever issue that came up, And I knew that I could count on them. So that's what that's what my legacy I want I want them to remember. You know? Hopefully, they can remember saying, hey. There was a really good attorney that I had, you know, years ago. And, hopefully, I can find a law firm just like that, you know, or if that law firm, hopefully, is still around even even after I'm even after I'm not.

James Pittman: Well, Fizz, it really certainly sounds and seems like you're set for a lot of years of success in in law and having an impact on law, having an impact on the Spanish speaking population. So I think you've done a fantastic job of really taking what you truly wanna do in the law, actualizing that, turning that into reality. And it's a really an interesting story, and you're doing amazing work. So, Chris, I really do thank you for joining us on immigration uncovered and giving us insight into the secret of having a successful law practice in the Latino community. Thanks very much, Chris Bagnon,

Christopher Bagnato: for being here. One more thing. Get a tie that says Colombia on it right there. Right? The clients love them. Little tie. I do it for all my countries. I got an Argentina one too. I got Venezuela too. And then on the back, you put a little saying. Yeah.

James Pittman: There's the secret right there. You heard it here.

Christopher Bagnato: Alright, guys. Thank you so much. It's been an honor. Thank you so much, guys.

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