James Pittman: Welcome to Immigration Uncovered, the docketwise video podcast, where we dive into practice management strategies, law and policy topics, and the transformative impact of legal technology. I'm James Pittman. And today, we have Andrea Monta von McKillop. She is the founder of Monta von McKillop Law out of Vista, California, and we're gonna be talking about a very special topic, LGBTQ immigration law issues. Andrea, welcome.

James Pittman: Thanks for having me. You're very welcome. Andrea, it's, you know, it's a topic that, you know, really is very special. You know, it's I'm personally connected to it. So, I mean, tell me about, you know, how you got started on this path.

James Pittman: Why did you wanna, you know, focus your law practice specifically on LGBTQ immigration law?

Andrea Montavon-McKillip: So several members of my close family are queer. We're we're a queer family, and the the coming out process and the the journey of queer families is something that's very close to my heart. So when I recently moved to California and decided to reestablish my own law firm, I thought a lot about where I wanted to concentrate my efforts and what groups I wanted to make sure I was serving. There's such loud hatred and lack of empathy out there for the LGBTQ community worldwide, And, you know, one person can't change all that ugliness, but I can change things by helping a certain segment of the community that I know best, LGBTQ immigrants. So I decided that I was going to use my skills to help them to help them get to a place where they feel freer to live their truth in the open. And, you know, while the United States is far from perfect for the LGBTQ community, compared to many other countries, it's much safer and and more open. Now that doesn't mean I only help LGBTQ immigrants, but I do keep myself educated on the specific issues that affect our LGBTQ immigrant community, and I specialize in advocating for that community.

James Pittman: I mean, there are a lot of challenges that immigrants who are, LGBTQ and sometimes I might use the term terminology sexual minority, but who are, LGBTQ. They, you know, there are some challenges that they face in the immigration system. So let's let's just set the context for this whole discussion by talking about some of those challenges.

Andrea Montavon-McKillip: Okay. Well, I mean, obviously, there's still prejudice. And in our immigration system, individual officers hold a lot of power. And while most are well trained and respectful, there's you're always gonna encounter a few biased individuals who are making these life impacting decisions. One of the biggest concerns come up when LGBTQ individuals are processing visas abroad. So this could be a fiance visa. It could be an immigrant visa based on same sex marriage. It could be an employment visa, and you're seeking to include a family member who happens to be trans. In many countries around the world, it is not safe to be openly queer, and we're talking more than just strange looks or insults. We're talking about danger of physical violence, of facing virulent discrimination. And so it's really about navigating around those obstacles in order to bring the individual safely to the United States.

James Pittman: So let's just so there were policy changes that were put into place when the Supreme Court in the Obergefell case, legalized same sex marriage across the United States, and USCIS followed up in pretty swiftly with guidelines for its adjudication officers that stated that they shall treat same sex marriage, for example, exactly the same way that they treat opposite sex marriage. From what I can see, they've done a pretty good job of that, at least with the marriage adjustment status case. But we're gonna talk a little bit later about, you know, how you help same sex couples to get ready for their interview and make the strongest case possible, because it may they may have certain things different, like they may not have children and so forth. That may make it a little more challenging to, you know, show up, for example, a bona fide marriage to USCIS. But in terms of the visa adjudication officers, so what are some examples of prejudice that you've seen that you know about?

James Pittman: Why do you believe that there's still this this prejudice that is out there? What makes you think that?

Andrea Montavon-McKillip: Well, when we're talking about Department of State officers, usually, the the the visa officer is pretty good. My concern comes when you have to go outside of the US Embassy for some service. So you need a medical exam, and maybe you're referred then to a third party provider who has no direct link to the Department of State, that's where you you can encounter issues and discrimination. And as far as immigration officers inside the the United States, 2 of the biggest issues are not understanding how powerful societal pressures to conform can be, and another is the erasure of bisexuals. So let's say we have a case where there's a same sex married couple, but one or maybe both previously had an opposite sex relationship. Well, sometimes you may encounter an officer who says, wait. That that doesn't compute for me. That that means you can't possibly be gay and that, you know, they're missing the point. Like, okay. Well, first of all, maybe this person is bisexual. Okay. We you know, bisexual people do exist. And then, also, there may be such a pressure to conform or maybe you didn't you know, you weren't free, and you that's the reason for this previous opposite sex relationship. So those are those are 2 common things that come up in preparing for a a marriage based interview.

James Pittman: It's a not uncommon scenario, especially, you know, people who are, living in parts of the world that are just much less hospitable and much less free on this issue. It's, you know, not uncommon for people to go back and forth between, a same sex relationship and an opposite sex relationship as they try to struggle, you know, for example, with a coming out process. And, you know, and the officers looking at that from, you know, the standpoint of an an adjudication officer or a visa officer, you know, they they like things to be black and white for the most part in terms of, you know, making it very clear to them what's going on. So when somebody's history, you know, looks like it's it's varied or it's they're all over the map, you know, that's where I think confusion can arise. So do you find I mean, how do you how would you approach that as an advocate? I mean, you know, do you try to educate the officer? What's your approach?

Andrea Montavon-McKillip: 1st, you wanna make sure that you have a well documented case with lots of evidence. So, you know, sometimes if someone has not always been able to be free and open about their sexual orientation or their gender identity, they're not gonna have the same types of evidence that an up opposite sex couple or maybe a cisgender couple would have. Their family members may not be aware of their identity or their relationships. So you have to rely on other types of evidence to overcome that and to build a strong enough case. Once you're in the room, obviously, it's the attorney's job to educate the officer. If they're asking questions that are inappropriate, you have to be ready to step in, cut that off. You have to be ready to ask for a supervisor if it's warranted. But having that well documented case from the beginning

James Pittman: puts you in a better position overall. So let's talk about, you know, either the fiance visa case or the marriage based adjustment case where where you're depending on the relationship being legitimate and and bona fide. And, I mean, there are obviously some distinctions if you're if you're in a fiance situation where the people are not married yet. You know, you have to you have certain prongs that you have to meet in terms of showing that they're intending to get married versus if they're already married, then you're really showing, you know, the bona fides of their relationship together. So let's talk about those two scenarios, and let's just assume a childless couple. How would you approach this, you know, building a building a record?

Andrea Montavon-McKillip: Okay. Well, so if we're talking about a fiance visa situation, they're not living in the same place. They're not living in the same country. So the best way to go about that is really looking at their communication. So text messages, Facebook messages, screenshots showing how often they call one another and how long those calls are. And I'm not talking about text messages that are just like, hi, baby. How you doing? What's going on? Like, showing that there's substantive discussions over a period of time. Now not intimate, obviously, discussions, but you wanna show a sustained conversation over a period of time to show that, yes, this is actually a this is a real relationship. For a married couple, if the family is unaware, then you're gonna have to go with friends. Neighbors are good because, you know, neighbors can say yes. They've been living together. We see them working in the yard together. We see them dry you know, going out together in their car. Neighbors and friends are often good in that type of situation.

James Pittman: With the fiance visa, one of the things that I have heard anecdotally is that, if the foreign spouse is in a country that's you know, where it's not safe for them to be open, they may not be, for example, putting up pictures on social media of them and their partner. They will feel that that's not a safe thing to do. So, you know, you may have to I mean, would you do advise your client that, hey. We need to have a record of communication, so you know, to document your relationship, you know, because it's probably gonna be mostly, in that case, the 1 on 1 communication via text or via per you know, one to 1 emails rather than, you know, showing them socially or or or or showing postings from social media. It just occurred to me that that's you know, anecdotally, it's something I've heard be an issue. And then in the case of the marriage situation, I mean, anecdotally, I've heard, you know, people encounter discrimination or problems when they go, for example, to put their spouse's name on something like a lease or, you know, maybe, arranging some of their, insurance or something like that, depending on, you know, where they're working. What would be your advice to people in those situations?

Andrea Montavon-McKillip: The most important thing is your safety. So, you know, these couples are communicating by some method, whatever feels safest to them. So whatever that is, that's what we wanna show proof of. So maybe they're not texting because they don't feel safe. Maybe they're maybe it's phone calls. So then, like, a screenshot showing okay. If there's a couple who's speaking every day, 2 times a day for 20 minutes each time for a year, clearly, that's a real relationship. Right? Even if you don't have, like, the specific social media posts. As far as other types of evidence, I mean, you just have to really dig down to see what what you can get.

Andrea Montavon-McKillip: Sometimes it may be something you didn't expect. Maybe they have a gym membership together. You can have a list of the times that they went to the gym, or maybe they have a Costco membership. And you can print out, you know, your Costco purchases made with your different cards. So sometimes it just requires digging a little bit more to see what what the couple can come up with. Let's shift a

James Pittman: little bit and talk about the the asylum context, which is another major area of interest. I mean, fact of the matter is in many regions of the world, and it could be, the Middle East. It could be Central America. It could be places in Southeast Asia. It is just not safe for people to be open or LGBT, and they may desire to leave their country and go elsewhere if they face persecution or they have a fear of persecution in the future. Oftentimes, they've already faced persecution. They a lot of them have faced it much of their lives. But, how does your firm support, LGBTQ immigrants who may be facing persecution in their home countries based on their sexual orientation, their gender identity, or their gender expression?

Andrea Montavon-McKillip: So, obviously, asylum is going to be one of the principal options, proving persecution as a member of a particular social group. You know, asylum carries its own risks, so I always try to explore all potential options with them, whether that's family, humanitarian, employment, investment. But when you do the asylum process, that may be a very strong and may be the best way to move forward. So when you're doing an LGBTQ asylum case, the main difference from other asylum cases is really in the specific story. The individual needs to provide details about their own self discovery, when and how they discovered they were not heterosexual, that they were not cisgender, that they were not part of the gender binary. And, you know, that can get tricky because, usually, if you're in one of these countries where some aspect of LGBTQ identity is outlawed, you're usually trying to hide it to maintain your own safety. So it's really important to establish relationship of mutual trust between attorney and client. It's really important not to rely on stereotypes, but to listen to your client and get their story and to always really explain to your client what you're trying to accomplish. You know? I I'm not trying to, traumatize you by going through these, maybe very intimate or very painful details of what happened to you, but this is necessary to prove your case to an immigration officer.

James Pittman: I mean, there's a lot of misconceptions about the asylum process, and and and those misconceptions are held by people who are LGBT as well. I mean, for for the first, you know, for the first thing, you have to be present in the United States in order to ask for asylum. You can't ask for asylum when you're you're abroad. So there's there's nowhere to, you know, send an application asking for asylum if you're not already here in the US. Secondly, you said that there were some risks, and I think it's good to talk about some of those risks because people you know, who knows? Someone might listen to this podcast and be contemplating, you know, coming to the US and asking for asylum based on their sexual, orientation or gender identity. And they need to know that if you're in the United States and you ask for asylum. I mean, the fact of the matter is is if you're not already in legal status, you know, if your asylum claim is not approved, you know, that's a fast track to getting put on removal proceedings. And that's a decision, you know, it's a decision that you have to, make based on based on, you know, seeking advice from a qualified immigration attorney who's familiar with asylum claims and the asylum process. Also, if you're just arriving in the United States and you you ask for asylum as soon as you touch down, let's say you do it at, you know, the airport as soon as you arrive in the United States. There's, you know, there are some specific processes and procedures that they follow there. You may find yourself detained if you're an arriving alien and you're asking for asylum. Maybe better to, you know, if possible, to get into the the country as a visitor first and then submit an application. What are your thoughts on some of those? How do you counsel clients on the risks of seeking asylum?

Andrea Montavon-McKillip: Well, I do it right away. In my first conversation with them, when we discuss asylum, I specifically lay out what the benefits are and what the risks are. I specifically explain that if your claim is not successful, you're going to end up with a deportation order eventually because that's so important to know before you take that first step and send in that asylum application.

James Pittman: What would maybe be some alternatives to somebody rather rather than asylum?

Andrea Montavon-McKillip: It's going to depend on a lot of factors. Do you have family members in status in the US who can petition for you? Do you have skills? Is your employer willing to petition for you? Do you have some money where you could invest, you can make an investment?

Andrea Montavon-McKillip: Do you as far as humanitarian options, you know, have you ever been a victim of a crime? Have you ever been a victim of trafficking, domestic violence? Are you from a country that is eligible for TPS? So you have to go through all of those options upfront so that you can lay out for the client, okay. Here's your options. Here's the risks. Here's the benefits, and, ultimately, it's their choice

James Pittman: how to proceed. Yeah. It's very important. I mean, people yeah. I've seen it. I've I've run into people here and there. They come, you know, as a tourist or as a student or something, and they, you know, they don't wanna go back to their country because, you know, they're afraid they're gonna be persecuted based on their sexuality or gender identity there. And the first thought in their mind is to claim asylum, but you really have to think it through. I mean, it could be that if you, you know, if you hang in there, if you're patient, you'll find an alternative route, whether that's the employment based route, whether it's staying in school and as a student and then the employment based route. Maybe you'll meet someone and, you know, have a relationship, and you'll have a basis there. I mean I mean, it may be that asylum is the way to go, but my point is that it is something that you have to think about because, first of all, if you're not approved for asylum and you're not in legal status or your status expires during dependency of your asylum. And let's let's keep in mind a couple things. I mean, first of all, asylum is not exactly a quick, a a quick sort of processing type of case. They are, USCIS, for example, is backlogged, to the tune of about 2 to 3 years, to get an asylum interview. Last I heard, again, I'm I'm, you know, stopped, being impracticement, you know, many years ago, but from what I've heard from people that, it's out by a few years, to get an interview, and you're not eligible for employment authorization for the 1st 6 months of your asylum claim being pending. You know? And secondly, you have to meet a specific legal standard for asylum, and and that usually involves showing that you have been persecuted or that you have a reasonable fear of being persecuted in the future based on one of the protected grounds. And sexual orientation or gender identity as such is not one of the protected grounds, but social group membership in a social group is one of the protected grounds. And so you have to show that the person's sexual orientation or gender identity makes them part of a social group, which is a visible identifiable social group that is subject to persecution, you know, in the country that you're talking about, and you have to go deeply into the the country conditions documentation. So let's talk about how you would how you would go about, you know, sort of gathering information for an asylum claim. You know, what sources do you rely on for the country conditions, and what other types of evidence would you use, in an asylum case?

Andrea Montavon-McKillip: Two great resources for attorneys who are assisting LGBTQ asylum seekers are immigration equality and also the Center For Gender and Refugee Studies at the University of California College of Law in San Francisco. You can go on their websites and you can request information, and they have all kinds of, documentation available that they can provide you with. Obviously, you can do your own research, and you can look at the different country condition reports available from not only the Department of State, but other, NGOs. So that that would be the main way to collect the country conditions. What can be tricky is establishing that that specific person is going to face persecution or has faced persecution in the past, as I mentioned, because they may not have been out. So how how do people know? How do you prove that? How do you show that? And how do you do it without, you know, relying on stereotypes? And that, again, comes down to your client specific story and having multiple deep discussions with them about that and about different ways to prove it. You know, if you're relying on a pattern and practice of discrimination in the client's home country, then you really need to get specific with the country conditions evidence. You need to look for specific news articles. You need to see if the client knows of other people who have faced that persecution and try to get as much evidence as you can.

James Pittman: Yeah. I mean, just to give give our listeners a sense of some of the complexity, of this topic. Oftentimes, things look one way on paper, you know, and you you, you know, you might find that a particular country doesn't have specifically any laws, you know, against being gay or anything like that, but, but the reality on the ground is totally different. It's, you know, it's the discrimination is not codified as such, but the reality on the ground, you know, tells a different story. And as a matter of fact, you know, there is a lot of discrimination. That's you know, that can be one situation. Another situation is that the persecutor, you know, either has to be the state or someone or someone associated with the government, or if not a state actor, a group or an entity or individual individuals that the state cannot or will not con it will not, protect the asylum seeker from. And that that gets, you know, pretty complicated, to try to demonstrate that, in certain circumstances. Like, for example, you know, there are some LGBT, cute people from Central America who have, you know, tried to argue that gang violence in Central America is more likely to specifically target them because of their sexuality or gender identity. And that is difficult because the gangs are not state actors, and you have to then demonstrate, you know, that the government simply can't or won't protect them. If you look at the human rights documentation, we mentioned, immigration equality, but some good NGOs, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, and there's others, several others that are very good. You know, a lot of times, they do have specific materials and specific sections that talk about patterns and practice of discrimination by, for example, law enforcement, by police forces, or, you know, by, certain sectors of society, whether it be, you know, right wing groups or, you know, extremists on the right, etcetera, against the LGBT q population, and you have to, you know, really dig. You may have to use an expert witness. Andrea, what's been your experience? Do you find often the need to to call on an expert witness, and how do you go about locating 1?

Andrea Montavon-McKillip: This may depend on a lot of factors. But if you are if you are looking at a country that appears to have strong laws protecting sexual minorities, you may want to get an expert who can talk about the culture and can talk about discrimination is not codified. That doesn't mean that it's not pervasive throughout government. So, yeah, in those types of cases, it it's probably a good idea to get an a country conditions expert. And, again, sources like immigration equality and CGRS, the they're great resources for finding experts. You also wanna ask around in your local immigration lawyer community at your local universities. There may be a professor locally who you could call as an expert witness, but, yeah, I would highly recommend an expert in those type

James Pittman: of situations. Let's talk a little bit about the difference. I mean, we've got we've got sort of everybody lumped in under the umbrella of LGBTQ. But when you're talking about the trans population, there are certain specific issues that they face which are a little bit different. They're just specific issues, and that has to do with, you know, how they present the gender that they're presenting in versus their gender of self identity. And then it gets into the issue of changing their identity documents and and things like that. What are some of the specific problems that you've seen or heard of the trans population having with identity documents, with availing themselves of the legal protections of marriage because, you know, they may be coming from a country where same sex marriage is not recognized and, you know, they may be a trans person and then marry somebody who is opposite the sex of the you know, that they were born into. I don't wanna make that too convoluted, that scenario. But my point being, trans, what specific issues have you seen?

Andrea Montavon-McKillip: About a year ago, USCIS adopted some new guidance for self selection of gender markers. So it used to be that you would have to provide a doctor letter or some kind of evidence of your gender identity besides your your own testimony, but USCIS adopted this new policy last year where you can self select gender, you know, on their forms and so forth. And so you'll be able to get a green card. You'll be able to get a work permit that lists the gender that you choose. Okay? Regardless of whether or not you have a doctor letter, regardless of whether you have proof of a medical transition. So that's really important. The problem is there's still no option for nonbinary. The only place that currently has an option for nonbinary is on the US passport. They have the x gender marker now. And USCIS says that they're going to be moving towards including that additional gender marker on their forms and their documents, but they're not there yet. So that's kind of that's a place where USCIS is falling behind. And that that identification document is so important. I mean, it can affect so many areas of your life. We're talking, you know, school, health, trying to get other identification documents. So that's the good news for USCIS is for a lot of things. The only exception is with the n 565, which is if you need to update your naturalization certificate or your certificate of citizenship. That's the only place where you still need to provide some kind of evidence of your gender identity. But for everything else, you are what you say you are. I mean, it can it

James Pittman: it can get complicated to say the least. I mean, there are certain you know, there there are countries where, you know, if a person comes to the United States and then they transition and they want to apply, let's say, to renew the passport in their in their country of origin, I I can't I don't know of any specific example so that I can say 100% they would face this problem, but I have a strong sense that they would face the problem that, let's say, they, you know, come to the United States, they transition, and then they wanna renew a passport, which is in, you know, the gender that they were at birth. I think they would have to kind of temporarily detransition themselves, at least appearance wise, presentation wise, in order to get that that passport removed because the country that they're seeking it from isn't gonna recognize, that they, you know, had changed genders after arriving in the United States. That's one example. But you can imagine that these issues get, you know, pretty pretty complicated. And I think as advocates, you know, people really especially I mean, it's you know, if if you're coming at this as an advocate and you're not LGBTQ yourself, and you're not you you haven't had experiences which has may have made you, like, really deeply familiar with the issues, I think you really have to do some self education. Lawyers need to do self education and be develop cultural competence, on on this topic. That's the best thing to do, just like you would do if you're planning to, you know, have clients who are from a particular part of the world. You need to develop cultural competence about what the specific immigration issues are facing, you know, people from that country or that region. Same thing. If you're gonna deal with LGBTQ, you better be familiarize yourself. And, you know, there are, I'm sure, some good resources. There's certainly immigration equality is a great resource and others. Have you seen the issues? I I mean, are you aware of any CLEs or any sort of legal education that could help people get up to speed on their cultural competence on these issues?

Andrea Montavon-McKillip: Yeah. There definitely are more and more I mean, there's way more resources available than when I first got out of law school 22 years ago. There's lots of CLEs available. I try to attend every one I see. As you said, we hear a lot about cultural competence, but what does that mean when we're talking about LGBTQ immigrants? Because, you know, yeah, as an immigration attorney, you quickly learn what to say or do or what not to say or do based on where your client, what culture they're coming from. And and the same is absolutely true when it comes to LGBTQ clients. We're not just it's not just about asking preferred pronouns or name. I mean, language is super important, but that's just the start. It really requires a deeper understanding of how things like your your own sexual orientation or gender identity impacts everyday decisions you make. How those things inform your own identity, how you view yourself, how they impact your relationships with others, with family members, maybe with authority figures. So it's it's really important to to educate yourself on all of these aspects.

James Pittman: Yeah. I mean, the main the the number one thing is to avoid, you know, stereotypical narratives and avoid preconceptions. That's, you know, that's a that's a prerequisite to developing any cultural competences. You have to challenge your own biases, and then, you know, you have to kind of develop you have to educate yourself on the issues, but also, also challenge your own responses to the issues. You you have to kind of watch I mean, there's a term in psychology they use called transference, where it's basically like the the the feeling that you're having toward the person that you're dealing with.

James Pittman: You have to kind of challenge your preconceptions and, you know, when you are you're dealing with your clients and, develop competence in being the best advocate that you can be for them having schooled yourself on their issues. So, you know, there the the the opportunities for education are are multiplying. I mean, like you said, I mean, I can remember back, you know, in nineties or something in law school. There was, like, 1 seminar class on these topics, and, you know, it's mostly on, you know, the handful of cases that were going through the system. You know, that was that was a time when, you know, same sex marriage was just becoming or not even, I think, not even, you know, not even yet legal in one state. It's in not in Massachusetts, I think, until 2 the early 2000. It's been a while. But the opportunities for, you know, educating yourself on these issues have have really multiplied. And, and we'll post some links to, you know, some resources. Let's see. I mean, have you encountered from either colleagues or just from the public, you know, misconceptions about LGBTQ immigrants and and who they are. I mean, for example, I mentioned sometimes to people, I'll mention an issue like, you know, hey. There are gay or lesbian or trans, immigrants who are, you know, caught in these detention centers at the border, and they're they have a lot more problems than even everybody else who's being detained there have simply because of, you know, maybe hostility from the staff or hostility from other detainees. I mean, if From other detainees. Yeah. Other detainees. Right. So, and and people you know, when if you mention that to people who haven't really thought about these issues, they're, you know, they're kinda surprised that, you know, yeah. Hey. Hey. Yeah. There might be somebody. You know, when you see it on the news, you think you know, you don't really necessarily think, you know, there might be some LGBT people there who are having an even rougher time, but that's reality. Have you encountered any misconceptions about who LGBT immigrants are or, you know, anything like that?

Andrea Montavon-McKillip: I mean, I think the biggest misconception is one that I mentioned before is erasure of bisexuality and not being able to conceive of the notion that someone might be attracted to more than one sex. And as far as detention, I mean, detention is harmful for anyone. It's harmful, especially for immigrants who are fleeing persecution. But on top of that, it's harmful for queer and trans immigrants. I mean, imagine you're put in a pod with a bunch of a pod a dorm in the detention center with a bunch of people who are not your they're not your gender. They're not your gender. You don't feel comfortable with them. Or, you know, imagine you're put in a dorm with a a bunch of people who are seriously homophobic. And, you know, you have to deal with that on top of all the other stressors you have to deal with. Or, you know, maybe you're on a medication regime and you're not able to continue that in detention. They won't give you the medicines you need. So, yeah, that is absolutely serious problem for LGBTQ immigrants, and that's why it's it's it's always important to prioritize getting those clients out of detention as soon as possible. Now let's shift a little bit and talk about sort of legal practice. And, Andre, are you a solo, or you have, some other attorneys in your firm? I'm a solo at this time.

James Pittman: Yes. So how do you how did you create or what would be your advice about creating a safe and inclusive environment for LGBT clients within your firm? And let's let's assume for the sake of argument, that we're talking about that the attorney is not LGB, but they want to make their firm a safe and inclusive environment to have those clients.

Andrea Montavon-McKillip: I think you already picked up on one of the main factors is being educated yourself. Being culturally competent, knowing going into a relationship with a client, how you can treat them with dignity and respect. That starts on a surface level, but also things like your forms, questionnaires you're using. You know? Are you assuming that they're heterosexual when you're asking for their spouse? Breaking down all of those prejudices and biases we may have, and making sure all of your processes, all of your work flows are keeping that in mind. And when you bring on staff, making sure your staff is well trained and culturally competent. Because maybe you may be super well educated on these issues, but if your staff member uses an offensive word or slur with a client, then that that destroys all of that, goodwill that you've built up. So those are some of the the things I would recommend.

James Pittman: Yeah. I mean, having the having the staff use the slur would just be disastrous. I mean, I would hope that that would be a very rare occurrence. But, just having them for example, you you you raised an important point, which is not to, you know, not to assume or have the staff assume that, you know, every client is heterosexual on this, you know, marriage to someone of the opposite sex and that sort of thing. I'm I was focused more on, assumptions that people make once they already know that somebody's LGB, but you you know, that what you're talking about was the biggest assumption of all, which is something that used to be omnipresent in society, which is that everyone was assumed to be straight, and that was just that was just the working assumption in society until fairly recent. So I think cap you know, having the staff not, you know, make that assumption as well is is very important. And make sure that your materials in the firm, whether it's your questionnaires, how things are phrased, you know, making sure that you are employing inclusive language and that you're demonstrating in in all aspects of your your firm culture, your firm presentation, whether it's your advertising, you know, how how people are greeted in the firm, how they're treated by your staff, etcetera.

Andrea Montavon-McKillip: I mean, even just the the the photos you have on your website. Right. Are they all, you know, opposite sex couples or opposite sex families? Things that a lot of attorneys may not even think about, but all of those things go a long way to making for a more comfortable environment for everybody.

James Pittman: Well, could you share do you wanna share a memorable experience or a success story from your work with, an LGBTQ client?

Andrea Montavon-McKillip: I do a lot of appeals. And about 10 years ago has it been that long? 5 to 10 years ago, I won a couple of appeals for a lesbian couple from Central America who were in detention. And, you know, they were they were detained during the appeal, which, you know, is awful. And winning and then being able to get them out of detention was just was amazing.

Andrea Montavon-McKillip: Because as we discussed, you know, detention is so, so harmful, and that's why it's so important to prioritize getting them out as soon as possible. Okay.

James Pittman: And and and you did, and it was a success.

Andrea Montavon-McKillip: Yes. So I took on the case at the appeal stage. I wasn't the the original attorney in the removal proceedings, but I won the appeals. And then after winning the appeals, I was able to get them released from detention, you know, and it was a couple. It was very rewarding to be able to do that for both of them.

James Pittman: Wonderful. Glad to hear that. You know, it's very important, to have allies, and the immigrant should have other allies beyond his or her attorney. Hopefully, they can plug into a network. There are various social or advocacy organizations that support immigrants and support LGBTQ immigrants. I mean, we've talked about immigration equality. Do you know of other organizations, whether they be immigration focused organizations or LGB organizations, that can be useful in supporting LGB immigrants?

Andrea Montavon-McKillip: That's gonna be very specific to the locality. So, yes, immigration status is just one piece of the puzzle. There's there's often other legal areas that need to be addressed. There's the issues like housing, education, health care. So it's it's important to be tapped into these other areas and all of the organizations that work with these other areas. So for example, for me, in the San Diego area, I'm part of the San Diego Equality Business Association. And so that way, if I need to refer my clients to someone, I know I can refer them to someone that is LGBTQ friendly. But, you know, it it's going to be so local, and and you really need to investigate the organizations in your area to see who you can partner with and who you can refer your clients out to.

James Pittman: You know, there are statewide or city and also many of the larger cities will have an office of immigrant affairs. They might also have an office that's a liaison for the LGB community. So both of those places would be places that you could look. Then there are statewide, you know, lobbying organizations, human relations commissions, things like that. There aren't national LGB organizations. There are, you know, national immigration organizations that you can look at. For example, LULAC would be, for example, 1, but there's many. There's many. So we'll post we'll try to post some links to some resources as well. And, Andre, you know, this year, 2024, we're, you know, we're we're in, the midst of a presidential election, and it's a very, you know, politically charged time. You know, we're we're facing, you know, some political actors who, have really targeted immigrants, and, some of those same actors have a history of targeting the LGB community. What's your sense of how people are feeling? I mean, do you think that do you do you sense, I don't wanna say panic, but do do you sense alarm, let's say, amongst your immigration clients, your LGB immigration clients, due to the political climate?

Andrea Montavon-McKillip: Yes. And I think as immigration attorneys, there's there's also a lot of fear about what what could come with a new administration or a different administration. I think that those of us who are advocates for the LGBTQ community, the immigrant community, we need to be loud, and we need to not disrespectful, but loud. We need to meet those those voices that are, you know, spewing this hate and ugliness, and we need to make sure people know that we are here and that they're not going to get away with denigrating these communities. Yeah.

James Pittman: The most important thing is to take action and make sure that you are are plugged in, that you are playing a role, that you aren't just being a, you know, passive observer to it all. Exactly. Take action. Be active. Figure out what

Andrea Montavon-McKillip: you can do to support your local community. And,

James Pittman: Andrea, what, looking ahead, I mean, we've mentioned, you know, the political climate is difficult. But, I mean, are there any specific steps that you think should be taken specifically in the immigration system systemic things that would achieve greater equality and justice for, LGB immigrants?

Andrea Montavon-McKillip: That's tough. I mean, training is always something that government employees could use more of. You know, discrimination is offer often intersectionals. There's there's, you know, immigrants often face discrimination based on language, on national origin, ethnicity, but then on top of that, if you're a member of the queer community, you've got that as well. So training is one thing. I think also the Department of State needs to look at making the environment more safe for LGBTQ visa seekers in those countries where there is some aspect of being queer is criminalized. Well, this is this has really been, an engaging discussion and, you know, really lively topic, which I think is something that, you know, could use more more use more exploration.

James Pittman: But, Andrea, I wanna thank you so much for taking the hour and being with us here on Immigration Uncovers. This is Andrea Montauban McKillop, and her law firm is Montauban McKillop Law. And you are out of Vista, California. California. Florida, California. Okay. Andre, thanks so much.

Andrea Montavon-McKillip: Thank you, James. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.

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